Tuesday, April 08, 2025

There is THIRty, then there is THIRteen. So if there is TWENty, why is 12 twelve instead of "twenteen?"

 

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There is THIRty, then there is THIRteen. So if there is TWENty, why is 12 twelve instead of "twenteen?"

⭐️ Vocabulary / Semantics

Who chose 12 to be twelve instead of "twenteen" and how come?

 

 

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[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 235 points  

Proto-Germanic formed the numbers 11 and 12 from a ten-count numbering system.

11 was “ainalif” and 12 was “twalif” which meant “one left over” and “two left over” respectively.

12 was the number you had if pulled out a group of 10 and had two left over.

Regular sound changes morphed those words to “eleven” and “twelve” over the last ~2000 years.

13 - 19 used the form “3-10, 4-10, 5-10 (“þritehun, fedurtehun, fimftehun”) etc., which English still does. We don’t know why Proto-Germanic treated 11 and 12 differently, but it’s not the only European language that does that.

Multiples of ten were literally “two tens (twai tigiwiz), three tens (þrīz tigiwiz), four tens (fedwōr tigiwiz), etc.”

“Tigiwiz” (literally “tens”) got shortened in the various Germanic languages, to “-ty” in the case of English.

[–]ImightbeafanofthisNative speaker: west coast, USA. 30 points  

Thank you for this. I always wondered why there was no eleventeen. Great answer!

[–]indigoneutrinoNative Speaker 25 points  

“Tigiwiz” is an excellent word.

[–]KLeeSanchezNew Poster 6 points  

Just to add to this, Spanish also treats low teens differently: once, doce, trece, catorce, quince, and then it becomes dieciseis et al from there. So something in early Spanish led them to treat 16 and over as different.

Not a linguist, just an observation.

(The spelling is off, I didn't bother with accents)

[–]somuchsongNative Speaker - Australia 7 points  

Italian does similar from 17. It goes undici, dodici, tredici, quattordici, quindici, sedici...then it's diciassette, diciotto, diciannove.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 3 points  

Latin did NOT do this. I’m curious if the change is a Standard Average European Sprachbund effect.

[–]walterdavidemmaNew Poster 13 points  

I’m no linguist but there may also be a physical reason for this too. If you look at your hand and count the number of “squares” on each finger (the areas between the knuckles) you get 3 per finger. If you don’t include the thumb as a finger when counting (which not every culture conceives of the thumb as a finger equal to the rest), you end up with an easy way to count to twelve, but not thirteen or higher, before having to repeat.

I have no clue if this theory holds any water, but I know this is how the Babylonians counted and which is why they used a base-12/base-60 system rather than a base-10 system. Maybe the Proto-Germanic peoples also did this but had to adapt it to an inherited base-10 language (thus the “one left over” and “two left over” rather than a truly unique root for 11 and 12)? We have reason to believe they adopted things from the pre-Germanic peoples inhabiting Northern Europe so maybe this was another thing they adopted?

[–]5peaker4theDeadNative Speaker, USA Midwest 2 points  

I always assumed the *early Germanic peoples just liked counting to 12 and didn't really care as much about numbers higher than that, but that's just my own head canon.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 1 point  

It’s not an Indo-European thing though.

[–]5peaker4theDeadNative Speaker, USA Midwest 2 points  

yeah, sorry, it's early in the morning for me. I swapped proto-Germanic out for Indo-European.

[–]BadBoyJHNew Poster 3 points  

It's because 12 is a far better base system than 10, obviously.

There are dozens of examples in various languages of weird ways of saying numbers, from four twenty ten nine (99) of french, to half three twenty eight (58) of danish.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 0 points  

Base-20 counting is far from weird.

[–]BadBoyJHNew Poster 4 points  

French effectively goes forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, fourtwenty, Fourtwenty ten, Hundred.

They don't count base 20, they suddenly swap into base 20 for 80-99.

It's base 20 in the middle of a base 10 system.

[–]thesolitaireNew Poster 2 points  

Seventy should be sixty ten, but not sure if that has anything to do with base 20.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 0 points  

Under influence from Celtic languages, which are base 20, French being Vulgar Latin with a Celtic substrate.

[–]BadBoyJHNew Poster 2 points  

I understand why it's coming from, but it feels like you're arguing it's common, or that there is a reason. When I'm just saying it's weird.

It's common, contextually it makes sense that it happened; but objectively injecting base 20 into the middle of a base 10 system is weird.

[–]Desperate_Owl_594English Teacher 1 point  

TIL

[–]GravbarNative Speaker - Coastal New England 19 points  

proto-germanic*

[–]SteampunkExplorerNative Speaker 29 points  

Haha, no, English is a Germanic language. 🙂 It has ancestry in common with German.

[–][deleted] 7 points  

And why is English a Germanic language?

Because Germanic people came to England and settled there after the fall of Rome, and their language displaced the non-Germanic native one.

[–]SarollasNew Poster 2 points  

The Saxons, Jutes and Angles started to colonize modern England before the Western Roman empire truly fell, but it was certainly in decline at the time.

[–][deleted] 1 point  

Yeah, I should have said after Rome withdrew

[–]RegularRockTechNew Poster 2 points  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain

This long ago.

[–]Interesting_Tea5715New Poster 15 points  

Weird thing is that Spanish does the same thing.

It's only until you reach 16 that you start the teen pattern.

[–]SOTG_Duncan_IdahoNative Speaker 8 points  

Spanish also says 'teen-x' instead of 'x-teen' like English. Italian does x-teen from 14-16 and teen-x for 17-19.

Quattordici, quindici, seidici, diciasette, diciotto, dicianove.

[–]TetracheilostomaNative Speaker 4 points  

I wonder if that is somehow related to Quinceañera

[–]Interesting_Tea5715New Poster 8 points  

Nah, Quinceañera can be translated to "girl who turned 15" or "15 year old girl"

Quince is the number 15 and the rest is essentially a way to describe it as a person.

[–]Funny-Recipe2953Native Speaker 2 points  

Huh. As if you get to start using "grown up" numbering after 15? Interesting observation.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 1 point  

Here’s a good post that explains the etymology of romance numbers 11-19

https://www.reddit.com/r/Spanish/comments/38e08n/etymologywhat_is_up_with_the_written_numbers/?rdt=46107

[–]PHOEBU5Native Speaker - British 5 points  

Just as two weeks, or fourteen nights, is shortened to fortnight in most of the English speaking world.

[–]webbitorNew Poster 4 points  

I've known the meaning of fortnight for decades, but never connected it with "fourteen" until you just said that.

[–]PHOEBU5Native Speaker - British 1 point  

Yes, it comes from the Old English, used in an age when time was measured by nights rather than days. On reflection, we still do this when discussing being away on holiday (vacation), probably as it refers to the hotel booking.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 41 points  

It wasn’t stolen from old German, it’s descended Proto-Germanic.

[–][deleted]  

[deleted]

[–]renebellocheNew Poster 17 points  

The point is that while English did steal from French it did not steal from Old German—it is a Germanic language.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 8 points  

It did actually steal from Old German, which was contemporary with Old English, but Proto-Germanic was ancestral to both.

[–]renebellocheNew Poster 7 points  

Good point!

[–]PrestigiousJelly6478Native Speaker (USA) 15 points  

Saying English stole "twelve" from German makes as much sense as saying Spanish or French stole their numbers from Italian.

[–][deleted]  

[deleted]

[–]jared743New Poster 2 points  

From Italian or from Latin?

[–]POTATO-KING-312Native Speaker 14 points  

England was settled by many types of cultures/peoples. Germanic people also known as anglo-saxons, from the low lands and parts of Germany(Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg area) first settled in England in the 5th century. Then later on Danish/Norwegian vikings also ruled over England at times. Then later William the bastard from Normandy (an area in northern France) conquered England in 1066 and brought the french language combining it with the old english to make middle english. Thats the extent of what I know so I hope it helps and is right. And this will probably explain it better https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English

[–]CpnthsNative Speaker 8 points  

And before that it was Vikings who gave us Norse words and before them the Romans, who gave us Latin rooted words, who pushed the Celts out of England and into the extremities of the British Isles.

Before Britain colonised everyone else, we were colonised by everyone who had the practical means to!

[–]MNquestionNew Poster 2 points  

This timeline is mixed up.

Anglo, Saxons, and Jutes migrated en masse from Continental Europe from places that would become Germany and Denmark starting in the 400s.

Roman influence on Celtic Briton cultures predates the formation of England. Old English comes from a language that was already shaping up amongst groups of Germanic people still living on the continent. The Romans were out of Britain by the time that these Germanic people started establishing themselves in Britain. The power vacuum left behind by the withdrawal of the Romans fostered the growth of the kingdoms that would become England. Quick aside, the Romans never pushed the Celt's to the extremities of Britain. Almost everyone living in Roman Britain was Celtic. They were heavily influenced by the Romans and many groups were subjugated by the Romans, but the vast majority of population never really was anything other than Celtic at this point.

The language these people spoke shaped up into what we call Old English and was almost entirely formed from its Germanic roots. There was some influence from Celtic languages and some limited influence from Latin at this point. Much of the Latin that entered English at this time was related to military infrastructure and practices because military contexts constituted the majority of Anglo-Latin interactions at this point. The Anglos and related groups were less involved with the Romans than many other Germanic groups at this point. They did gain some words from contact with the Romans but that happened before they resettled in Britain. After the migration to Britain and especially after the decline of the Roman Empire Latin continued to be incorporated, mostly through religious contexts at this point.

Old Norse had a lot of influence on English from approximately 850 to 1100. This is basically at the end of Old English's life. This was because of the Danelaw, where Scandinavian warlords set up communities on the East coast of England north of London, eventually expanding to occupy much of Northern and Eastern England. We gained a lot of words from the Scandinavians and it influenced the way we use pronouns in particular. There was a lot of intermarriage between Scandinavian and English people and the languages were commonly used side by side in some places.

After the Norman invasion in 1066 English began to rapidly change and became middle English about a century later. In particular the Norman dialect of French had a massive influence on English at this point. The ruling class spoke French, many members of the ruling class did not even speak English. We quickly incorporated many words from French and many of these words ended up taking on slightly different meanings in English which helps contribute to both our numbers of words and the nuances of the language. We also gained a lot of words for concepts that might otherwise be addressed with compound words in other Germanic languages. Especially in science and philosophy. After the Norman lost control of England the the Plantagenets took control of England we went through another round of rapidly acquiring French words, this time from another dialect of French (I believe from Anjou, where the Plantagenets were based). This also helps account for how some words in English are derived from French more than once. For example warranty and guarantee both come from the same French word, that was pronounced differently in different dialects of French and was borrowed twice into English with essentially the same meaning.

Towards the end of the Plantagenet dynasty and at the beginning of the Tudor dynasty (between 1400 and 1500) English began experiencing "the "great vowel shift" which lasted for a few centuries and birthed modern English. It was after this period that Latin really began to take a greater role in shaping English vocabulary, especially during the Renaissance where many of the "Latin" words we use entered the language as new constructions based on Latin. We had another round of that during industrialization and it still occasionally happens.

[–]CpnthsNative Speaker 2 points  

Thanks!

[–]POTATO-KING-312Native Speaker 1 point  

Yeah I forgot in the moment that Rome was doing its whole conquering the world thing while making that response, but yeah English = a fuck ton of languages mixed together + Being confusing as hell.

[–]CpnthsNative Speaker -2 points  

It’s never been helped by prescriptivists who unilaterally decide that this mongrel language of ours has specific rules that can be written down once and for all.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 3 points  

It certainly does have specific rules. Lots of them! They just aren’t always what the prescriptivists want them to be.

[–]DreadLindwyrmNative Speaker -3 points  

And the first rule is that the rules don't always apply. :P

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 3 points  

No.

[–]QuercusSambucusNative Speaker - US (Great Lakes) 4 points  

Here's some history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain

[–]Offa757New Poster 1 point  

This is a poor answer and I don't know why it's getting upvotes. "English is multiple other languages in a trench coat" is an inaccurate cliche which proper linguists dismiss (lots of languages have large numbers of loanwords and other influences), the number wasn't "stolen" (even if you consider loanwords to be "stealing", it's not loanword at all) and doesn't originate from Old German.

All the English numbers from 1 to 999,999 come from Proto-Germanic, the ancestor of modern English as well as modern German, Dutch, Frisian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Icelandic, Faroese, etc. And all those languages inherited their numbers from that same source. They are as native, "unstolen" vocabulary in English as it is possible for any words to be in any language. Germanic ≠ German. German has no more "ownership" of these numbers than English or any other Germanic language.

[–]TheMarksmanHedgehogNative Speaker 1 point  

It's a deliberately funny oversimplification of what is obviously a much more complicated history, aimed at the fact that much of how English is structured is because it evolved from prior languages and their interactions and wasn't designed as a perfectly logical system for encoding information.

[–]OnlyOryskNative Speaker 1 point  

But the fact that English borrowed a lot of words from Norman actually has nothing to do with the words "twelve" or "thirteen" in any way. So yes it's an innaccurate answer. Most germanic languages follow the same pattern.

[–]joined_under_duressNative Speaker 2 points  

Pretty sure other European languages also have unique names for 11 and 12, likely because things were usually measured in twelves. Eg twelve inches to the foir, twelve pence to the shilling.

Twelve is a good number for mental arithmetic because it can be divided evenly by 2, 3, 4 and 6, and simply by 8 and 9.

[–]PseudonymIncognitoNew Poster 1 point  

Or why English has the "score" as a unit of quantity.

[–]omwtohell69New Poster 1 point  

It’s not just English, it’s like this in German, similar in French (starting from 17) and many more

[–]SOTG_Duncan_IdahoNative Speaker 1 point  

For the same reason it's venti/dodici in Italian and veinte/doce in Spanish and zwölf/zwanzig in German.

Because that's how it is.

[–]GreaterHorniedApeNative Speaker 1 point  

Culturally, we used to use some 12-based counting systems for measuring things, because it's divisible by 2,3,4 and 6 which is pretty useful. Old British money used to be all 12 pennies in a shilling, with sixpence and thre'penny (three penny) bits, and 240 pennies in an old £1 note.

My point is, aside from the origins of the words themselves, having unique names for 11 and 12 made a lot of sense for a long time. Now everything is metric and decimalised they stand out as breaking the pattern, but that's because they're part of an older pattern.

[–]fairydommotherNative Speaker – California 1 point  

Listen, I hear you, but I refuse to answer until someone holds French and Danish accountable for their counting crimes.

[–]WoodyTheWorkerNew Poster 1 point  

Because 12 is a natural counting base on one's digits (finger bones). People without school education didn't care about decimal system, they used dozens to count things.

[–]ImprovementLong7141New Poster 1 point  

It’s not unheard of for a language to use different language for eleven and twelve compared to the rest of the teens. Greek does it differently as well: eleven is en-deka, twelve is do-deka, and then the rest of the teens change it up - thirteen is deka-tria, fourteen is deka-tesera, and all of the rest of the teens follow that pattern of deka- instead of -deka.

[–]OldGroanNew Poster 1 point  

At one point people would count on their knuckles. Four fingers three segments meant you could go to twelve. As it was common to use this method word usage conformed. Another post here describes the ten and one left over and ten and two left over. 

I have always found this interesting because in French they go all the way up to sixteen before they go ten-seven ten-eight ten-nine. We on the other hand start at thirteen. I would be interested in finding a practical explantation how the French adopted another four numbers.

[–]RedditWizardMagickaNew Poster 1 point  

Its the same in hungarian, it just sounds better

[–]Underhill42New Poster 1 point  

Probably because there have been several prominent cultures involved in the development of mathematics that used base twelve (or base-60 = 5x12) rather than base ten, which is likely also how quantities like "a dozen" found their way into common usage.

E.g. there's 360 degrees in a circle because the Babylonians were a major regional power that made a lot of advancements in geometry. It's 360 because their geometry largely grew out of equilateral triangles - with 60 degrees per corner because that was a nice round number for a people that used base 60, and it takes six equilateral triangles to make a complete rotation. 6x60=360.

[–]mothwhimsyNative Speaker - American 1 point  

Twelve is more like twoteen than twenteen

[–]NamelessFlamesNative Speaker 10 points  

English isn’t Latin based? If anything, this counting system is one of the better preserved traits from proto-Germanic

[–]Sudden_Outcome_9503New Poster -3 points  

English is a creole of a germanic language and French (a Latin language). You could argue that it's technically a germanic language, but it's really a half-breed.

[–]NamelessFlamesNative Speaker 1 point  

that’s debatable, but certainly more arguable than claiming it’s a Romance language, although I disagree with the Middle English creole hypothesis. I’m a bit more sympathetic to it being a semi-creole, but generally I still disagree as imo it doesn’t fit the creolization process.

[–][deleted]  

[deleted]

[–]NamelessFlamesNative Speaker 6 points  

nah, in terms of raw word counts in the dictionary it has more from latin based, but in terms of day to day used works, most are germanic in nature.

5 of the words you used in your comment are of verifiably non-germanic origin, ~20 are germanic and the others are likely also germanic, but their exact origin is debated. The fact is, latin words are great for extra vocab, but the meat and potatoes reveal that English REALLY isn't a latin-based language.

[–]HortonFLKNew Poster -1 points  

And then we just scrap twelve and call things a dozen.

[–]monofloristNative Speaker -3 points  

When I taught my kids to count, I told them it was tenty-one, tenty-two etc but that everyone else called them something different. Like how now I’m teaching them circles with tau instead of pi. I don’t know if it helps but it certainly presents a cleaner model.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 5 points  

This is why people shouldn’t homeschool.

[–]monofloristNative Speaker -1 points  

I don’t…most people learn to count long before they go to school

[–]Square-Tear-314New Poster 1 point  

And then get laughed at by the rest of the class because they don’t know their numbers? Just imagine a kid in front of the class, saying 6+6 ist tenty-two, the teacher understanding twenty-two instead, the kid then explaining that it means twelve (but doesn’t know it’s actual word) and the rest of the class having the laugh of their life.

[–]OllieFromCairoNative Speaker of General American 1 point  

Yeah, but most don’t learn to count wrong.

[–]webbitorNew Poster 2 points  

Did you replace "ten" with "tenty"?

[–]Sepa-KingdomNew Poster 3 points  

It would be onety, surely, and 100 would be tenty

[–]monofloristNative Speaker 0 points  

No but I should have

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